Cultivating a Good Learning Culture

with Shaan Hathiramani,

CEO, Flockjay

In this episode, Podcast Pete is joined by Shaan Hathiramani, the CEO at Flockjay. Together they discuss how to equip your team to be more effective at their jobs, which includes everything from cultivating a learning environment to working with various tools.
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Key topics in today’s conversation include:

  • Rapid-fire questions: Favorite leadership moment, biggest challenge, (0:43)
  • Shaan’s journey to becoming a CEO (3:16)
  • The challenge Flockjay is overcoming (9:47)
  • Unity when team members use different tools (19:45)
  • A look ahead for Flockjay (24:42)
  • Advice for aspiring CEOs (29:58)


The SaaS(ramp) Podcast explores how tech leaders scale from product adoption to enterprise success. Learn more at


Pete Thornton 0:06
Hey everyone, welcome back to The SaaS(ramp) Podcast. I’m your host, Podcast Pete. Great guest on today looking forward to having this conversation with Shaan Hathiramani, CEO at Flockjay. Welcome, Shaan.

Shaan Hathiramani 0:18
Hey, Pete, thanks for having me on.

Pete Thornton 0:20
Super excited to have you on here. Really cool platform you lead, really interesting company. Glad we got connected up and you agreed to try my new thing. So we’re going straight into a couple rapid-fire questions here.

Shaan Hathiramani 0:35
Always here for the new, new thing.

Pete Thornton 0:38
Yeah, when you got to hypergrowth company, they say, oh, it’s new, let’s adopt. So here we go. Favorite leadership moment.

Shaan Hathiramani 0:47
At Flockjay, we’re in the business of helping folks make their sales teams more effective at their jobs. And I think one of the coolest things about my job is when not only do we do that, but I see a lot of the practices that were espousing to our customers play out internally. And as a former teacher, on the side, I worked in a bunch of different industries. That just lights me up, because seeing folks unlock their own potential, both within our company. And in so doing Unlocking Potential at other companies, there’s this really cool, cascading effect of success that happens.

Pete Thornton 1:22
That’s cool. That’s definitely especially when you’re hiring so many people, you’re growing so fast. It’s like this internal peace, it’s helped now, and then you can kind of turn around and push it externally. Following Yeah, I love that. Okay. Very, very cool. And we’ll have to come back a little bit to what you do on the education side did and do. But I said it was gonna be rapid, so here we go. Number two, biggest challenge last six months?

Shaan Hathiramani 1:46
Yeah, I mean, I think we all are feeling how quickly markets are changing. And one of the things that has been a challenge and an opportunity is recognizing that it is table stakes to demonstrate value of your product, but not nearly sufficient, because now the stakes for selling your product into an organization mean, the decision is being made, oftentimes at a much higher level than it was being made previously. There’s political will and inertia, there’s the need to consolidate tools and workflows, demonstrate cost savings in a return. All these things are things that naturally should come up in a sales cycle. But everything sort of starts to get out of 11. And what great about that is it really challenges any leader to focus on what their unique value not only in delighting the end user is, but also for the buyer? Why should they take the risk to take on your new product to know your new process or platform to make their company better? Right, because everyone’s trying to figure it out. So that’s the challenge and opportunity that I think a lot of us are facing.

Pete Thornton 2:58
Okay, okay. Yeah, great, kind of do feel that one, especially as you kind of like, talk a little bit about market headwinds and what the transitions made are, that makes that, alright, and maybe backpedaling out of it, you’ve got a super interesting background, your CEO. I just made the note in the little pre-calls like, hey, you know, I know you did not go to college to become a like to like, the degree was not in becoming a CEO. So how you got to this particular opportunity, how you created it for yourself, et cetera, like on the personal and professional wavelength, love to take a few minutes and just understand a little bit more about Shaan as a human being coming up to hole nine.

Shaan Hathiramani 3:36
Totally. You’re right, that wasn’t the goal in the college experience is to be a startup CEO. Nor wasn’t necessarily the goal to be in the sales industry. I think I speak for probably lots of folks who go to college and they don’t necessarily start their first day of school being I want to graduate and go sell things. So my journey actually starts coming through college, not really having a clear perspective on what it was that I was both good at and that I wanted to spend time on. But the things I knew that gave me energy, were understanding all the skills that potentially could help me figure that out that weren’t being taught in school, even the fanciest, nicest schools out there. It sounds like Pete, you may have some familiarity with this yourself. But so many of the skills that are required in today’s workforce aren’t being taught in accredited institutions, and especially with the student debt that a lot of us come out with. Trying to solve that was something that was the beginning of my journey. And for me, that was as simple as getting a job that could cover rent, and expenses and things like that. Right. I didn’t necessarily think beyond that. And so I defaulted into a job in finance at a time where the great recession was just beginning right 2008 And part of the motivation for that was I thought financial literacy was such an issue. for that set of skills for me personally, to kind of figure out, I wasn’t really exposed to a lot of those skills in school settings, and still am learning a lot about those skills. And my thought process was if I could take a job and learn on the job and get some of those skills, I can maybe start teaching them back in communities like mine. And so that was the beginning of actually my interest in not only those last mile skills, but really in teaching and helping folks unlock the winning formulas and potentials in themselves, by connecting them with knowledge and access to networks. And so while I did work in finance for about 10 years, I also taught financial literacy on the side through a variety of programs. There’s a big shoulders fund in Chicago, there’s a small nonprofit I started in New York as well. And these kinds of experiences, ultimately, even though they were kind of in the background of my career, started to have a louder and louder voice in my head in terms of what actually drove me and excited me in terms of areas of focus. And so when I decided to transition, and move out to the Bay Area, and potentially sort of explore careers outside of finance, that was a natural one that kept coming up in my own process of how could I help connect folks to those skills that aren’t taught in school, and in so doing, unlock the best versions of themselves and learn from their peers and learn from skills that they didn’t have access to. And so that led to me being almost a reluctant CEO and founder because I didn’t necessarily find a company that was working on this problem in the problem space that I wanted to spend time on, which was in sales. There are a few, but I wanted to sort of take a unique approach to it in focusing on a really high quality of education, and supporting folks making career transitions into the software sales business. And so that was the beginning of my journey as a CEO and founder in this current incarnation at Flockjay. And I think I can probably speak for a lot of CEOs where we’re on the second version of what that company looks like. And there are multiple versions and reinventions of companies throughout their lifetime. And one of the biggest learnings we had in training some amazing people and learning on how to do that in a global pandemic was that perhaps the bigger problem in terms of getting folks into the industry was actually how we were setting them up for success inside the companies they were at. Okay, and, and the tooling that a lot of companies were stuck with, in terms of traditional stodgy learning management systems that weren’t well suited for a remote and hybrid workforce in an increasingly technical world.

Pete Thornton 7:52
They pay difference. Yeah, yeah, thanks, completely changed. A lot of things that you just said they really resonate. And it’s not just because of like the mutual interest of the theme of the podcast, but it’s the but the personal journey. So yeah, because there was, there was the transition from teaching, which was extremely interesting, until I started recognizing maybe that I wasn’t teaching the things that they were going to need in life, because I found myself lacking. And it felt like a little bit of a gut punch to have that much education, and then move into a professional career and still feel that later on having done all the correct steps of what I can, essentially determined. And then, and then dealing with students who were asking the question in high school, and be like, well, you know, what, if I’m going to be real with you, like, we’re gonna have to have this conversation with me right now. Maybe cellular biology will help you, but maybe it won’t, what do you want to do? Like, and now you’re, now you’re having a real conversation. But I call away that background that you have, it’s if anybody wants to check it out, like Greenfield labs. And this is something that Shaan put together for financial literacy. So off the main topic of the podcast, a really interesting way of weaving real-world solutions into education. Because it sounds like that should be like hand in glove. It’s not necessarily. And so when you make connection, it’s really valued. So love to know, maybe then what did this roll into? You had 10 years and finance, this background and education, which were kind of like it’s parallel tracks, but then one sort of taking over from the other. And now you’re in this world. Now we’re in similar world, so go-to-market enablement, and you’re enabling from Flockjay from your software. So, and then I’d love to know, what is it that’s actually kind of causing that but maybe, maybe I’ll back it into like a challenge because we like to focus on challenges here. What challenge are you seeing that you are trying to overcome with the product that you’re creating?

Shaan Hathiramani 9:47
Yeah, I’ll put it really simply, and this is something a customer told us. She said, “I can’t live in a world where all the great ideas of my team got to die in Slack.”

Pete Thornton 10:02
Love Slack, but yes. Maybe it’s just a fantasy wall.

Shaan Hathiramani 10:06
Right? It’s a love-hate relationship with a tool that can connect us from a communication perspective, but doesn’t necessarily do the best job. Nor is it designed to be a collaboration tool or institutional memory tool or a learning tool. And what’s happening is, is the speed of business is moving at such a pace today, that the challenge is that all the learnings that are coming out from the field aren’t being reflected in the way we educate our teams fast enough and effectively enough. And so there’s got to be a system in a way to connect all these disparate tools, whether it’s a call recording software, or ideas that are thrown into your communication tool, or something in Salesforce, where the rep who is busy enough as she is, is able to share and learn the thing she needs to do her job better at the exact moment, she needs it. And on the flip side, in enablement, being able to build content faster and more effectively than having to come up with every module, every slide every idea yourself because that simply isn’t sustainable. The business is moving too fast, the learnings are too quick. By the time you create something in an old school LMS. It’s dated. Yeah, you’ve got to be able to build these better feedback loops. And that’s what separates good go-to-market teams from great go-to-market teams.

Pete Thornton 11:35
Okay, so this is extremely interesting because I kind of explained to you before and again, this pre-call we do like that’s a podcast unto itself. I don’t know why we just started for that part. This is something we’re doing now is a Postman, hypergrowth unicorn doubling headcount doubling revenue every year for however many years like it’s just going to continue and continue with if all continues to go well. So what we have found is we have implemented fantastic leading all number one software’s and then we are having a hardest time, even with a nine-member enablement team, keeping up with the pace of change for all these rapidly growing teams. There are two contingents, there are onboarding new people coming in, and ongoing enablement, existing reps needing to have that tip-of-the-spear information. And we have come to something that is working, but is working with a lot of have is a lot of chug, plug and chug. So it’s up to what’s working, why is it working? How’s it working? What’s next, this is the framework we follow. And we do leverage call recording, we leverage LMS. And we leverage our CRM, and all the content management systems that surround each of them because everybody has their preference. And so we have a row to where our customers are across 17 sub-roles. And when we do this, I don’t know at the question after all that is like, just tell me more about that. Tell me a little bit more about how you guys are accomplishing this. And I’m probably going off script, because I’m just interested now.

Shaan Hathiramani 13:01
Yeah, and you’re in a small but increasingly growing segment of enablement, leaders who realize that there’s actually a larger philosophical shift in terms of the role of enablement. I’m having to generate everything themselves and be the subject matter expert, to actually partnering with subject matter experts in the field and just bringing more dynamic feedback loops, right, because once you do that, you can kind of scale yourselves a bit more, what you’re describing is a solution that seems to work but it’s like held together by duct tape. There’s a big coal fire burner on the back side. And, you know, there’s a lot of coal that’s going into power that engine. And what’s neat about a lot of the tools and systems you’re describing, is that you can get them to start talking to each other. But the missing piece, which I think you’ve probably started to uncover is that any good learning culture is both platform and process that no one tool is going to connect at all, you actually have to create a culture in which reps are rewarded for making the team better for sharing the insight for capturing the idea. So at a high level, our platform allows you to do two things. One, it integrates flow this tools you’re mentioning to be able to just in time, prompt someone to share a lesson of exactly what you mentioned. Right? What worked, what could have gone better, what’s the next step? What’s the generally applicable thing that others can benefit from, and we’re able to tag and organize those cards. So it’s not only visible in the moment, but also is visible in a library that you can use and turn into training, and also is tied to the metadata from your CRM. So if you are working a deal, you’re selling into hospitals and you want to understand what other deals like this, have we closed in the last six months with these kinds of properties and not only what was the closed loss or flows One sort of deal review, or some of the things along the way, right? Are some of the learnings that happen because sometimes we lose some of that for just looking at the endpoints, right? So one thing we do is we create that integrated feedback loop, right, and almost two sides to what I’m describing, there are the learnings that are coming up in the field, and then being able to turn those into training. Yeah, the second thing we do is we help create accountability and process change, really giving you a way to have visibility into who are the folks in your team are not only hitting their number, but also are contributing the most worthwhile lessons to your team.

Pete Thornton 15:39
That aspect of it is really interesting because they do it, they have done it in the past, because I build rapport with them, like I write podcasts by, Hey, your friendly neighborhood, you know, enablement leader. So, but that is increasingly difficult as layer after layer of leadership stacks in harder to get to know people have a larger team have to take care of. And so some of that, like, like what you had in the office, hey, Phil, would you mind if and you can almost slide over to their laptop and get that taken care of. That’s a that’s departing a little bit, but you still want to have those assets, you still want to say, Hey, would you mind send me that close one review? I’d really like to you right? And with that with next week’s new hires, like some of the water cooler, ask right, your enablement, like, love to know, like, a little bit how that functions, why they would deliver that in a more digital or remote-first, asynchronous manner.

Shaan Hathiramani 16:31
Yeah, and it’s not an easy problem to solve. It does require partnership at the field level with the frontline manager level and some of those relationships that never is going to fully go away. But there are a couple of things that you can solve. And one of them is how do you align incentives, were sharing that content actually unlocks some kind of potential for yourself? I think in the past, it’s pretty altruistic, right? Someone’s pretty busy, they’re trying to move to the next deal, you’re gonna ask them, Hey, can you send this close to one report out to me, but if there’s a central space, and a feed in which it’s shared, and then your VP of sales, or your CRO regularly shouts out, folks who are sharing these lessons, and they get visibility at different levels of the organization, and if they’re looking for a leadership position within your company, and want to have the receipts on the ways in which they actually made the team better? Now, you can start to empower them with almost an internal digital resume, right? If like, here are the lessons that I’ve shared, and the ways in which I’ve made an impact, that say, Hey, like, it probably isn’t a bad idea to get into the process of sharing this out. Because every time I’ve done it, I’ve been recognized, or it’s something I could use and hang my hat on later. So we have not only dashboarding, and leaderboards and things like that, but ways in which, you know, mid and senior-level leaders can recognize the folks who are actually sharing the lessons that can drive exponential impact for make or break scenarios in the quarter. And those are sort of cumulative lessons that occur over time. So those are some of the ways in which we think about how to build a continuous culture of learning in that continuous enablement, kind of world that you’re operating with. How do you keep getting better at the job?

Pete Thornton 18:19
That’s interesting. You even use the term receipts. Like I have heard that in like, slang methodology where like, you’re like, hey, this happened. I did this to like, Yeah, show me the receipt. And I’m like, show me the receipts. There’s no version show me the receipt. It’s very interesting. Like a good a cool take on that. What about the workflow then like, so? Okay, it’s another app. So I’ll just name names like, like on the enablement side? Because I do love my tools and how I specially cobble them together with my own version of duct tape. When you say duct tape, I’m like, Oh, my gosh, I’m sitting here in South Carolina, you know, and formerly of Tennessee, and like, can we use duct tape for everything? Yes. But it’s like because they’re in Salesforce. They’re in gone, I can bring them into lessons. We have guru, which is a content management system, you know, like we’ve looked at others such as high spot we’re interested, you know, as we mature and grow, there are various different content management systems. And each one is another place where people have to go. So it is nice if they can be into a single workflow, like can you meet them where they are? Because some people won’t even go to Confluence and JIRA, you have to put things in Google Sheets for them. Everybody has a way they like to work, but the business gets bigger and bigger, and the personalities get more dynamic and separated over time. So I’d love to know how like that challenge is kind of encountered.

Shaan Hathiramani 19:41
Yeah, I think that’s a really important question and something we’ve thought about a lot. One is we don’t have to be the central tool where everything has to live ever because, as you know, that doesn’t exist. That’s a fairy tale. Every set of teams has a different set of tools they love, but we do try to meet folks, where they are by building into the tools reps, are really love, specifically Salesforce. Yeah, so Flockjay can exist entirely within Salesforce, it’s a tab within there, it can be linked in your opportunity tabs as well. And the idea is, is while you’re doing the work, you should also be in the same screen or pane of glass, be able to see what the learnings from your team are unrelated deals or other lessons that might help you accelerate what you’re working on. And that piece, I think, is really important. We have a Slack integration so we can meet you wherever you are, if you are spending time in Slack, you can check your wins and loss channel or your Flockjay channel or whatever it might look like to see what are the things that I’ve been kind of assigned to do. And there are triggers in our system where based on a deal stage change, Flockjay may send you a notification and say, Hey, like that was really interesting, go check this out, or go share your lessons and be rewarded for that. And so that helps you overcome the tool? Question, we’ll never fully do it. The thing I like to say is that we have so many screwdrivers, and not that many Phillips and we’re the Philips is like how do you get better at your job, the screwdrivers are trying to optimize the last mile of every sort of like little motion of your job. So there aren’t actually that many tools devoted to learning right to effectively get better. And if you can establish yourself as playing nicely with the tools that you already are doing your workflows in like Salesforce, Slack, LinkedIn, sales, nav, etc. Yeah. And blockchain kind of like goes with you throughout your day, right? It’s in your browser, it can be in your Salesforce, it could be in your Slack could be on your phone. And those things are really helpful. And they matter a lot. Because I know this from my own personal experience, I will do things if it is another two or three steps to remember to then go into another tool.

Pete Thornton 21:50
Yeah, yeah, it does. It just happens. Like it shouldn’t happen that way. But it’s not the only thing you’re doing in a day. So and when people get busy, and when they know the inherent value of it, if there are no receipts coming.

Shaan Hathiramani 22:02
If there are no receipts coming, it’s not going to do it.

Pete Thornton 22:07
Okay, that’s really helpful for me. Again, like some of the audiences enablement and MIT much of the audience’s go-to-market leader. So kind of everybody understands there’s a headcount quota, there’s going to be 25, more, you know, sales members and other 15 Customer Success all the associated solution engineers, and how are you going to bring them on board? Like, are they going to know what happened and what went well last month? Or is it going to be the LMS content from six months ago, and you were Marquez, within the six months, like that seems reasonable.

Shaan Hathiramani 22:39
They come up with a win. Six months is doing a pretty darn good job, but it’s already still. And I think the thing on the other side is, you know, call recording software is great, but those recordings pile up pretty fast, too. And not only that, there’s context above those recordings, which is really the lesson and it’s not the specifics of the actual recording itself. So there are so many layers here, we’re, we’re close. But we need one kind of system to bring out the best from your reps and put it in a place where folks can interact and engage with it at the right time that they need it. Not all of it at once. We all know we’re constantly being bombarded with requests to learn and trade and get better at our jobs. And we don’t do most of it, because it’s too much. And it’s not another thing I actually need to.

Pete Thornton 23:32
Right. There was something that hit me a long time ago, I was at an app exchange, a Salesforce AppExchange company, and we help drive actionable insights. Now it’s just like, rolls off the tongue. But it’s also like a What can I do from this? Because these are action-oriented folks like in go-to-market teams. And so there’s a lot of information, but what can we do with it? It’s the same question, Coach, when we’re gonna ever need to learn this. I’m like, out, you are going to be here eight hours a day for the rest of this year. And then I can’t tell you, you’re going to need to know this again. You know, so right. It’s the kind of thing like, when are we going to need to know this? What can I do with this today? Yeah, yeah, awesome. Okay, then maybe backing up just a little bit. And you know, being cognizant of time trying to get you out here we always go over but as a CEO, then like, leading, leading this company, trying to try to keep everything juggle, like why you’re rapidly growing? What about the challenges of moving from stage to stage to stage in the journey, maybe even some context of where you think you guys are now? And then where you see yourself kind of moving in the future? A little look ahead for Flockjay.

Shaan Hathiramani 24:39
Yeah, a little context and where we’re now is, I mentioned we started as an academy and now we’re, if you’re purely focused on providing software solutions to companies to train their reps to be more effective. And so there’s a natural tie in there. Our mission is the same. It’s how do you unlock the potential and folks and Mark access to education. And I think in each of these chapters as you go through transitions as a company and unlock new abilities of your own, as a company, there’s a new muscle to build, there’s a new set of skills that I have to learn as a leader, I have to spend more time on different parts of the company than I would have for there’s also people management. There’s process management, there’s time management, I think one of the hardest things any leader can think about today, no matter your stage, is what are the things that matter the most, this week and this month, and they’re not always the most obvious, there are so many things you could be working on at any given time. And a lot of the art that I’m still navigating as a leader is learning what to say no to that, we’re not going to, we’re going to choose not to work on that this week, whether that’s me personally, or as a company, we’re going to choose not to work on that this month or this. So that’s sort of my perspective on the various chapters of our business, and also just other leaders going through similar journeys. Is that constant at the beginning of every week, you know, we’re starting off the week with this podcast, is looking at my calendar for the week in the month and saying, what are the things I can say no, to this week? And what are the things I really have to focus on where I can be the most impactful?

Pete Thornton 26:21
Do you have a framework for doing that? Or is it just the act of doing it alone? Is it enough for you because you either do it or don’t? And if you’ve seen feel martyred? If you do, or is there a framework?

Shaan Hathiramani 26:34
I’ve started calling it and this is actually not my original terminology. It’s from someone I work with, who’s an amazing coach, I start Paul, I started calling it the executive meeting with myself. Okay, I try to do it before the week starts. And I imagined me sitting down with me and looking at the calendar and looking at the week ahead. And we’re just having a meeting, we’re going through the things that are sort of swirling around in my head, the events, you know, the various, you know, appointments coming up, the larger quarterly OKRs. And just going through, okay, like, here’s what I’m going to focus on just this week, maybe the first half of the week will be more on sales and go to market kind of things to the last half will be more in product, it won’t be perfect like that. But at least we’ll start the week off thinking that’s how it’s going to be. And that single meeting is actually really important. And it helps adjust and set the expectations for myself through the lead.

Pete Thornton 27:34
It’s interesting, you called it that and that is a more like, it’s a more pared down version. But I had something like really woo-woo that I was listening to that had dig some of this stuff I get into it. I’m so heavy in science in my background, that when it goes to comes from somewhere else, I’m like, let’s balance me out. Let’s go there. So it was kind of an executive meeting, but you’re almost sitting down at your own board table. And it was these people like 10 years in your future like being like, have we done this, and you’re ruined, letting them coach you from like the future and stuff like that. And it’s the same idea. Because who else is there besides you, it’s just you, but you’re, you’re putting yourself in a slightly different headspace, so pairing that down to the week and just looking at it from that executive point of view that you obviously have, but you might not engage with 24/7.

Shaan Hathiramani 28:19
Yeah, and I think that probably common in many leaders, myself included were intellectually I think you know, the thing that you have to do, and you’re actually, you know, pretty readily able to give advice to others in your company or your team or even just other leaders, but following it yourself, somehow is really hard. And you get in all these mental traps that you set for yourself, and you get distracted by other polls and you know, things that pop up. So to think that change of perspective is important, even if it’s the most simplistic, least woo-woo version of this, you know, that I practice or the one you’re describing, which frankly, sounds pretty cool.

Pete Thornton 28:57
I just heard about all right. I would do that, though. That’s the kind of thing.

Shaan Hathiramani 29:03
Yeah, it’s kind of like the ghost of Christmas, past and future. And they’re all there. And they’re figuring it out. But even the simplistic version of just like, sit down with yourself and try to have a honest sort of discussion of what actually matters and what can wait.

Pete Thornton 29:20
That’s a good tip. And then let’s maybe wrap up with one more, and it’s come back on like the rapid one. But this would be you have an amazing bit. Listen, I gotta call it out. You got a math degree at Harvard, you have a mathematics bachelor’s at Harvard. So you didn’t put that in your bio, but half the call that went out like just incredible background, and you marched through many fields and Lambda where you are today. So a tip for yourself 10 years ago. Can be personal, can be professional. But if you could talk to Shaan 10 years ago, what would you let that person know?

Shaan Hathiramani 29:55
Yeah. I think the openness to ask questions and areas you don’t know much about and to pursue them or your list rigorously, is so, so important. I think we all get stuck in our grooves of ways of thinking and things that we think are important. And then the other piece of advice is that don’t sweat it too much as your life and the world changes. Because inevitably, we’re all going to have to reinvent what we’re doing and how we’re doing it probably multiple times right and have multiple careers. And I would say the same for myself today. I think I’m still early in my journey of figuring out how I want to have impact and the kinds of things I want to learn about and, and build. So those are two pieces of advice is that be really curious and pursue those little strings of curiosity because you never know where they’ll lead. And then don’t beat yourself too much about it. Because life has a way of creating these Mandarin courses that ultimately it’s more about, you know, those stops on the way and not some preordained linear A to B path.

Pete Thornton 31:01
Yep, I do love that. I do love that. And I do ask that was “ask” and then “pursue.” Because of an ask is a little bit of help. And pursue is like something you can control and dive into an ad really the duality there. And any type-A person CEO sort might just want to not sweat it as much as sometimes you need five minutes of not sweat and product and go-to-market.

Shaan Hathiramani 31:25
All in the camp of advice, I hope I follow myself.

Pete Thornton 31:28
That’s it. That’s a tip for me 10 years ago, it’s probably a tip for you for like Tuesday as well. Shawn, thank you so much. That was brilliant. Really appreciate it. Great insights. Thanks for Thanks for listening if you’re listening, and yeah, I hope to do this again in six months when everything has changed.

Shaan Hathiramani 31:43
Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Pete. Looking forward to continue to stay in touch and working together.

Pete Thornton 31:48
Absolutely. Cheers.