The Empowerment of SaaS Products

with Boris Jabes,

CEO, Census

In this episode, Pete talks to Boris Jabes, the CEO of the very fast-growing software company, Census. Together they discuss product market fit, hypergrowth in software, and what’s in the near future for the industry. From all of this and more, learn how SaaS products empower individuals.
Play Video


Key topics in today’s conversation include:

  • Boris’s background and career journey (1:28)
  • The two sides of product-market fit (9:20)
  • Differences in software hypergrowth (16:10)
  • What the near future holds (22:29)

The SaaS Ramp Podcast explores how tech leaders scale from product adoption to enterprise success. Learn more at


Pete Thornton 0:00
All right. Welcome, everyone to the SaaS Ramp Podcast. I’m your host, “Podcast Pete.” That’s what I’m going by anyway, to get to a very special guest. We have Boris Jabes, CEO at Census, a very, very fast-growing software company. We’re going to unpack and learn a little bit about it today. But first, welcome to the show, Boris. Thanks for having me beat. Boris, by the way, is a podcast, podcast host as well. So we had been discussing the pros and the cons and the ins and the outs of any preset questions, name pronunciation, it went all the way through, we have a lot of sub podcast topics that we will unveil perhaps in the show notes.

Borris Jabes 0:42
Maybe we’ll have an episode with more footnotes than notes.

Pete Thornton 0:49
There’s something out there called it’s called “the precast.” And it’s basically a secret recording of every conversation before the podcast happens. Which is, which is super interesting, like 13 to 17 minutes, it seems and I think we could both agree that would be both our parts.

Borris Jabes 1:06
Yeah, I could totally buy that that’s a fountain of amazing content.

Pete Thornton 1:09
Brilliant. Well, I like to start, let’s start at the beginning. And we can make it chronological because you have a really, really interesting background. Maybe you can kind of just tell us bit by bit. And if I need to keep prodding, I will because it’s extremely interesting, personal and professional background.

Borris Jabes 1:28
Okay, so I was born once upon a time No, let’s not go that far back.

Pete Thornton 1:31
I knew you would start there.

Borris Jabes 1:32
I had to do it, I had to do it. I suppose it does start though, with my father bringing home a Macintosh when I was like five or six years old, and me just immediately falling in love with it. And really never thinking from that point on what I would work on and do with my life. Just kind of wild, when you think about it, how much of your life can get driven or directed by some event like that. So I studied computer science and college and grad school. And I kind of gravitated immediately in my first job towards tools. So I worked at Microsoft, in what I think is one of the best parts of the company on a product called Visual Studio, which is the most popular developer tool on the planet, the tool for tool makers themselves, and I learned a lot working there over the years around how much leverage you can get by improving tools, even though they’re one or two steps removed from the outcome, right. So if you think about it, our I was designing features, building things for someone who then went out and built, let’s say, a video game or an app like Chrome, these were the kinds of people we worked with, like, oh, I wanted to build the best web browser in the world. At the time, Chrome was just emerging. And they need really good tools to build that. And that’s what I built. And so you’re almost like two steps removed from the end user in some ways. But the amount of leverage you can generate behind the scenes there is is really massive, if we to put it in perspective when we made the compiler 1% Faster, or if it generated code that was 1% faster than what it was before. Your entire Windows operating system would be 1% faster. So us making one change had a downstream effect of making your entire operating system faster, because it’s built on top of our compiler. So there’s a lot of leverage there. So I think that’s where I was first exposed to kind of the impact you can have by building better tools for people in their work. Yeah, and, and then after a few years working there, I got caught with the startup bug and the a couple of friends set out to build what became my first startup over a decade ago now, which was a company called meldonium. She’s a little bit lost in the sands of time. But the at its core, it was a password manager, and in a way to manage your employees in your employee identity across the web. We loved SaaS, we really loved the impairment people had from using any SaaS product without having to ask for permission. But we found that he had this really, really annoying frustration of dealing with 5100, overtime, hundreds and hundreds of passwords related to all the apps that you had to log into. So we set out to try to solve for that and also make it easier for the company to manage people coming in and out of your team so that you could manage those credentials and that access. So we built what people nowadays call identity management software. We tried to make it very appealing and it was very popular and just a bit ahead of its time. In hindsight because SaaS was still in his infancy. Our product were what gave you so much value, the more SaaS you had, right? So the more apps you used, the more valuable and the more necessary a product like medium was. And you can see that today basically in the kind of market capitalization of Okta, just like for what we were doing, if you will, yes. And but my brain got kind of permanently attuned to this to this problem of like, the more SaaS you have, the more you distribute the workloads across your team across different applications. What are the things that don’t work? Well, when you do that and identity, right, login is one of those things. And then one of the other things which I set about to solve, when we started this company census, we started, we started that a few years, quite a few years later, after we’d sold the company, it was effectively the other side of the same coin, which is that the more SaaS you use, the more your data about your users, your customers, your invoices, your entities, your employees doesn’t matter, right, all your core data, that matters to running the business gets kind of disparate, different across all these applications. So if you have 3040 50 applications you’re using, whether that’s an email marketing tool, a CRM finance tool doesn’t matter. They all have kind of slightly different versions of the same information, because there’s no good way for all those applications to share the same data. And that’s why we set out to build something called Census. That’s why it’s called Census. And we built that we started this in 2018. And we will, we pointed this solution at what we thought was the best platform, the best storage layer for all your data. So a place where you could really keep all the information in your company, where it was correct, you could trust it, and then make it available to everyone in the company. And it made sense to us to target the data warehouse for this, because every analytics team is charged with understanding the business being correct. And the last thing you want to do is report to Wall Street incorrect revenue numbers. And so the warehouse was becoming to us this, this, this gravity, well of great data, great knowledge, great analytics. And then census became this product that is this product today that allows you to take that valuable data that those insights that you have in your team and operationalize them, right, bring them into the tools where people take action in the business, whether that’s a CRM, an email marketing tool, like that, or finance or support tool or CS tool, any of those applications benefit from having better live trustworthy data at their fingertips.

Pete Thornton 7:26
Yes, okay, that is really in the continuity between all of these phases is what’s really, really interesting because journeys always have the humps and bumps as you can kind of understand them.

Borris Jabes 7:37
I can only paint that big picture in retrospect.

Pete Thornton 7:41
Yes, like the Steve Jobs, like very famous quote, the dots only make sense looking backward. Yeah, that’s, that’s completely applicable here and the Mac coming home, and you’re five years old, and then and then they’ve kind of fallen in love with computers, you actually have two degrees you are utilizing today, that blows my mind. Never hear that never, ever is anybody utilizing in SaaS software or SaaS utilizing their actual degree. So you have to in computer science, using them both congratulations, but you go to school, you go to school, you’re at school, as long as you’re going to computer software, you get it and you use it. The tooling you hear about this, as often said about the gold rush, like how many people got rich in the Gold Rush, by selling the shovels and things like that. I know, that’s a tangent. But it’s also like the idea of everybody’s utilizing the tool. And then of course, my current experience being at postman with a 20 million developers utilizing postman at various levels. And you understand like, wow, so they’re okay, you’re managing that API lifecycle, that is a very fundamental tool, and just understanding the growth of a company that comes along with offering a highly valuable sticky tool to do whatever else it is they’re going to do. Seeing that lever early in your career is I’m sure was like very, very eye-opening. And then it led to what you say was, was like, it feels like maybe, even though it’s very successful, and had an exit to a brand name and other brand names in the space today that you’re like, well, there’s a little disappointment perhaps because being ahead of its time.

Borris Jabes 9:16
Yeah, it’s one of the things I learned in that process was when people talk about product market fit, you forget sometimes that there are two sides to that. And what I think I was young and underestimated at the time, was how much people truly loved. Like I undervalued how much people loved our product, like I got years later after the company we got we sold it and then a few years after that, things went kind of like went left when they should have gone right and the long story short that the product eventually got kind of summarily merged into another different products and then not done in a very effective way. I got angry emails right after the fact like years later. And so it was a product people really, really loved which something very difficult to do. And people. You most people never clear that bar. And our growth was good. It was good. It was organic, it was kind of like the early days of Postman, I suppose you could say. But it didn’t feel explosive. And the misunderstanding I had at the time was, well, it’s because the world is still getting on this bandwagon of adopting SaaS. And the companies that we serve were still small, they were the harbingers of the companies to come. Right. So believe it or not, we had amazing logos using our product, we had companies like affirm, and Instacart and Pedro duty using our software when those companies were like, visible. And by this, you can’t see it on on the, in your ears, but it’s like, we’re talking dozens of employees, right? Like they are utterly tiny companies. And you can look at that and say, Well, ah, well, we just haven’t figured out how to sell our product at market are these kinds of things. But in reality, it was just that these were the companies whose architecture everyone was going to follow over the next decade. So we were just stayed early. And we had found the early adopters in the kind of famous charts of technology adoption. And so we had trouble understanding that it takes a certain amount of conviction and, and kind of faith and ability to raise money to then survive to be able to, for the wave to kind of crest right, so that you can then serve it. Yeah. And so I think that’s was my biggest lesson, it was a success Absolutely. In, don’t make no mistake, it was a success. But it was not as big of a success as it could have been. And I think that was tied primarily to this inability to see that if we had had patience and just kept going at it, the market was going to grow. And I think that’s when we started census now quite not quite the same amount of time. But when we first started it, a lot of our customers, when we walk up to them and say yeah, don’t you want to get all your data into your CRM, you don’t want to power your sales are your power your marketing with better data? And everyone’s like, yeah, of course, I want that. Okay, well, we’re just gonna connect to your Redshift or your Snowflake. And some people would say, what’s that? Like? I don’t have that. I don’t know what that is. And I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Right? Because it was early, right, the data warehouse market was early, like modern Cloud Data Warehouse market was, for those who are familiar when. And so again, having patients there has is very, very valuable. And so I think that’s, that’s what you heard in my sentence, when I said we were too early for our time, right? Like it was just ahead of its time. That’s not a way of bragging that I was we were some kind of brilliant visionary people, it was more that sometimes markets really surprise you. And I think that’s the story of tech is, it’s all so much bigger than we thought. It’s so much to do. When I was in university, it was during the .com era. And I graduated after the crash that’s like started before the crash, graduated after the crash. So you, me and my classmates were all quite, quite unhappy with what just happened. Imagine, right? And not a great place to go get your first gig. Exactly, exactly. And we had been, you kind of had been promised this unbelievable. Magic land, we’re all going to move to California. And it’s going to be amazing. And this is going to be and it was a pretty dark time after the crash like that, that before. Let’s call it 2002 345. Those were pretty tough years in the valley. I mean, not that I was here, but in I definitely got the stories afterward. And so there was a sense of disappointment, right? Not just ah, we couldn’t get a job. But, but there’s also second level of disappointment of like, did we miss the computer revolution? Did we miss the Docker? Like, we obviously weren’t around for the 80s Like, computer like PC. Now, we missed the Internet to like, is it over? And we genuinely would feel this, like, Ah, now well, we’ll just be part of the computer industry, but not part of like a revolution. And we could not have been more wrong, right? The degree to which our field transforms all other fields is still in its infancy. So it’s, these are all things that I think we all we underestimated. And I think the kind of, I think of the field that we’re in right now like does zoom back into to Census. Census is truly designed around the Cloud Data Warehouse as a core piece of technology right where this layer on top of the warehouse that allows you to deliver far more value. Well, we haven’t made our product work with on prem data warehouses, which believe it or not represent like two-thirds of the market still. You think about Snowflake and these companies that you read about their stock, and they’re just unbelievable. From a pure user base perspective, they have so much more to grow. Like, they’re still actually quite early, and it’s easy to forget those things.

Pete Thornton 15:17
Okay, that is very interesting. So this one will just back and forth because I’m curious if you would even consider that to be a challenge. Like one of the things like a thesis of the podcast is, is really just like understanding commonalities between the challenges that those hyper-growth companies have, especially at a certain stage, and maybe you can kind of tell us what you what stands you think, yeah, that based on your experience, but the challenge was, like, one of the challenges that you just mentioned, might even be turn like patience. It might be categorized broadly as patients, but if you didn’t have what happened previously with melting and Lydon, would you have as much just like fortitude and be like, Oh, no, everybody like leadership ability by being early, if you will, with Census?

Borris Jabes 16:06
Yeah, I think that’s one of the ingredients, but I do think, when you talk about software companies and hypergrowth, there are different kinds. Obviously, I’m not even going to get into consumer technology, and the TikTok, and the network effect, companies like those, of course, are a whole other breed, but even just thinking about b2b software, there are things that every person understand the LDL No. So if you build a new task management application, it’s a need that everyone at this point in the 21st century understands. And you can make a truly better application tomorrow. And then you can go kind of market to all the asana users and all the Trello users and Confluence or JIRA users, right, you can go get them and say, Hey, here’s a new better way to do task management. And you still have to, I’m not saying it’s easy, but there is not, you don’t have to educate them about what is task management. Right now, they’re just looking at it as like, oh, a new task manager, Oh, I love it. Okay, I’m gonna buy it. And then if it’s really great, you’ll be boom, like, you’ll get hopefully, unbelievable growth, and then referrals and organic traffic, and so on so forth. With somebody like senses, you can’t just sit around and hope for the best, right? That’s No, no way for you to grow. So I think the two phases of Census was the very early days, where there was no what I would call hyper-growth, it was really pre-product market fit, per se. Well, the product, the key was the patients, the product didn’t actually change, it evolved, but it didn’t change at its core. What happened was the market change. And what I mean by that is the data warehouse hit its stride. company like Snowflake and Databricks really hit kind of a hockey stick in their adoption. And then you hit you kind of get dragged along, right? Because we’ve been saying this is the new architecture for companies, and the landmark of that you’re all adopting, and then, well, what else do I need to do when I transition to Snowflake? From my on-prem, like warehousing setup? Well, you’re gonna want to get this. So our job becomes to just kind of educate the market. And, and, and make sure, for all the kind of growth that happens on this big ticket item, that people kind of understand that there are there parts, like add-ons that you really want, as part of that Instagram would not have been able to succeed without the iPhone itself, right? It’s like, oh, what do I do? This camera is like, Oh, here’s a really good app to use with that camera. So I think yes, that’s the that was the catalyst to our growth, right, it was the data warehouse, our bet, but the data House made sense as a organizing physical architecture for your business. Well, we were right. And that has now that is now happening at breakneck speed in the industry, right, everyone is moving to, to this architecture. And then once you’re on that architecture, there’s a whole bunch of applications you’d want to use, including ours.

Pete Thornton 19:00
Yeah, okay. Fantastic. And it does seem like a great learning from previous that’s coming to fruition now.

Borris Jabes 19:08
You want to ride a wave at some sort, right? Like, there’s, it’s so fantastically difficult to build a company and if you, it’s like you’re playing it on hardmode as it is in a video game sense. Do you want to play it on superduper extreme hard mode? Like I suppose you could say, well, let me manufacture everything I’m going to manufacture the latent demand, all of it. And I think we we are we always live in a context and the take that Instagram idea, right, like, the iPhone came out, the camera was part of it. There are lots of things you could do with that camera, and then now that that was being adopted on mass, there are things you can now do because of that, right? Like, if Instagram had to also build a phone well, that company would not have been what it was right or had to also build a camera for that service to exist it so you always want to ride some Some some kind of larger need that everyone has. And so for my first company, it was really just the need to be able to adopt as many SaaS applications as possible. 10 years ago, the average company had like, three to seven SaaS apps. That’s it. Wow, that Oh, wow. Today, some of our customers have like 300 SaaS ramps.

Pete Thornton 20:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that everywhere.

Borris Jabes 20:22
But I didn’t create that demand. There was a broader need, everyone was like, all the best apps are SaaS, my marketing team wants to adopt some of my sales team like, and so it just exploded, the ease of adoption became the kind of wave and so you as a startup, you want to tie yourself to something just to make your life slightly easier.

Pete Thornton 20:45
Completely. And that is very succinct way to describe like the context for the Census hypergrowth at this point, right now, just because it’s, it’s in the correlates catching the wave, you made mention of that, like that vernacular, and it’s so um, it’s very commonly used, but it’s like, it’s also very applicable because otherwise, there’s choppy water, there’s flat water, there’s, there are things without rhythm, and then there are things that start to like, really kind of like, get all the water molecules moving together. And what is a wave a wave is energy. And so it nearly got in rhythm in a certain point in direction. So yeah, like, Great context. So you’re an engineer, when you came through and you understand about leverage, you obviously, a skilled leader in business person, too, because not everybody gets an exit, regardless of like, the nuance drop out of there. First, out of the first startup, I know a lot of people get a job at Microsoft, straight out of a Economy either. So there’s more to it than meets the eye. And certainly, it’s not just gonna be everybody’s journey. But now you take a great number of people, and attitude that say, we have this challenge is what we’re trying to solve. Here’s what we’re trying to get to, or hopefully there’s a point on the horizon that everybody’s kind of looking at, are there various outcomes and points. So they get a little messy because, if you’re mechanizing things and agonizing things, automating things, looking for the specific lever, like Einstein looking for, like, what is the one universal formula for all of his life? And then you put a bunch of messy humanity on top of that? What happens then? What is happening right now? What are your expect to happen in the near future?

Borris Jabes 22:24
Great question. There was a woman who went to see Sigmund Freud, and asked him for advice on, how do I raise money? And he said something to the effect of whatever you do, it’ll be wrong. And so the, I think there are some mistakes, you’re just gonna have to learn, even though I’m sure there are management books, and all sorts of advice to help you avoid that all the traps, like some things you will just have to learn by doing. And I think you’re absolutely right, you use the word messy, and it is messy to grow a team of people who don’t already know each other. And we’re joined together by an attraction to a mission to a product, and to what its potential is, as well as attraction to other people in that organization. Right. Funny enough, like you mentioned, I have I host a podcast, kind of like on the side as we run the business. And it’s wild to kind of discover sometimes candidates said, I went and listen to your podcast, and it was really good. It helps them want to join the company. So which is not the intent of it? Well, it’s just a happy side effect. Yeah. And so of course, it’s messy to bring a group of humans like this together, especially in the times that we live in where we’ve got some people in the Bay Area, and some people all over the place. So it’s kind of a hybrid remote world, we’ve all come through the pandemic. So I think building teams, making teams cohesive is just hard, we can probably pontificate on that for a very long time. I think that what I kind of go back to, and what makes it what motivates me through that is actually some of the same things that motivate me in helping our customers. So since this, we talked about this a bit, right is it’s a tool of very literal leverage in that if you think but what it does is it takes insights, data analytics, that an analyst or a marketing operations person or a marketing analyst has developed. And it gives them a pulley. It gives them like a lever, like an Archimedes sense of the word, it says, you can take this information that you have worked on, and instead of drawing a picture and getting everyone to go look at it somewhere in a meeting room, which is how you do business intelligence today. Its senses census gives them the ability to say I’m going to push this into the hands of the sales team, the hands of the marketing team, I’m going to change the way we generate our automated emails. It’s leverage And what’s wild and, and really inspiring for me to watch is these are people who are not by trade engineers. And so for them, it’s a new experience, to have magnification of their output for them to do one unit of work, and then have with a click of a button in our product have that output magnified. So why do I mention this in a very real way, like one of the problems that we have to solve day to day in our product is we’ve actually given our customers a lot of power. And we spend a lot of time trying to think about how to give them the support the guardrails, the warnings, so that they can use that power wisely because they’ve usually it’s their first time wielding this kind of power. We’ve had customers use the words, this is like a machine gun, I quote, because they’ve never had the ability to influence their company this way. And I kind of think about that as you could shy away from that, you could say, I don’t want to create superheroes, right out of our users, because it’s like super dangerous, they comes with great responsibility. And I don’t want to be at the center of that. And if they screw up, like you’re part of that. But I take the opposite position. And it’s actually one of our core operating principles in the company, it’s like going to core values, both when we talk about our customers and our team, which is to create what I call superheroes, to imbue your teammates and our users with the maximum amount of power with autonomy, right? And it means they will screw up. And it, it requires you to get comfortable with that, both as a leader, and as an employee at this company. Like, I will give you a lot of trust. In fact, one of our other kind of core values is that we trust by default, right? So if you’re gonna operate, like a company that’s fast-changing, and has all these different teams, like if you don’t have to, you don’t have to build out trust very slowly. So we give trust liberally. So if you have a lot of power, and you get a lot of trust, you’re gonna have epic screw-ups, things are gonna go real wrong. Once in a while, like that’s, that’s if it’s not, then you haven’t really done this because you can’t be infallible, like, I can’t be infallible in my employee selection process, that’s not possible. And the employee cannot be infallible themselves, that none of these things are likely. And so that’s kind of how I manage the let’s call it some of the difficulties of scaling a human organization, like you said, which is messy, which says a well let’s buy us for autonomy, let’s buy us for letting people run with things. Right, the email I want over I won’t proofread it, like I just trust you. And like, yeah, you might, you might send a stupid email to our users one time, and then you will learn and if you don’t learn, well, that’s a different problem. But that’s kind of a zoomed-out view of like less about the specifics of like, how we run the sales team, or the marketing team or the support team. I actually think it’s one of the things I’ve had to gleefully embrace, and I’m like, This is good, it actually aligns with my values because it’s why we built the software that we built when we first started anyway.

Pete Thornton 28:04
Yeah, that’s it, that is cool that it’s kind of like like that general vision or like, Yeah, I mean, it’s a bit of a vision is it’s informing your, your, your values, and also like a take on the product as well, like, Hey, here’s, here’s our the product, let’s give the power of the same product into our people. And so you’re starting to add to the people, the product, I mean, an enablement is typically three P’s, and you just start when you’re starting to kind of mind map like, Well, where are we going to do our work here? It’s people product and process. And so I’m sure that that informs the process as well. And in various ways, because it’s a very efficiently minded process, like I’m sure like, you can’t help but in view, some of this be like, what is the lever, you could pull, like a little bit of the Pareto principle, the 80/20, like, what can we do? I’ve seen all of this that we could do.

Borris Jabes 28:58
The founders and the early members of the company, we were very small for a while. And then kind of just, nearly the company is nearly 10 times bigger than it was, Well, how long? You don’t want to get up again, proximately, 18 months ago, it was about almost 10 times smaller. Which is just kind of wild. And so there is a lot of institutional knowledge even in a company as young as ours. There is very much institutional knowledge that you have to pass on. And that I think, is something we’re still learning to do. I think if when I think about a new person joining the team, whether that’s on the sales side, marketing side engineering side you want I want kind of two things as fast as possible. I want them to be as versed comfortable effectively, like, it’s almost like a countdown to When do they know more about senses than I do? Right? Like that’d be great because they’re on the front lines. So that takes time, right? You have to train them in the product, and then train them in the further pricing plans like we have and all these kinds of things. But, and then too, you want them to also make decisions that by and large, you would also agree with, or they would be congruent with the kinds of decisions you would make if you were in those positions. So it’s like, that’s, I think, where values really come in. And that’s why I’ve really emphasized some of these values around trade-offs that we made. I think there’s a lot of value in saying, well, you should have integrity if you work in this company, of course, but who would argue with that? What would take the other side of that, like that value? Who would go work at a company where it’s like, we actually don’t believe in integrity, as it strikes me as uninteresting, is important. It’s super important but uninteresting. And so when I think about biasing for power in our product, and inside our team, that’s a trade-off, right, it means there’s going to be less safety, less guardrails, there are design decisions you would make differently in the product based on that. And there are internal ways you design processes that would be different because of that. I think that’s, that’s useful, right, as a way of guiding the team towards making decisions that kind of are in line with, with kind of, let’s say, the founding ethos of the company, right? And can all this be done faster? Yes. Do I think we’re great at this? Like, do I think on a cohort basis, we’re getting better? Yes. But like, I think there’s, there’s still a ways we can go and I’ve, I’m continually surprised, and I shouldn’t be any more at the kind of gap between any two humans. So someone new joins our team, and they’re motivated, and they’re new and like, sometimes, like, oh, they don’t know about the data stuff? Because like, they don’t come from that world. Okay, that’s fine. Oh, they also don’t think the way we do because they worked at a different company that had a totally different set of operations and processes. So we have to also, there are all these things that you take for granted, I almost always want to say when people go how should we do this? I was like, do the right thing. Like I almost always want to reply, just do what’s right. Why are we debating this? But people don’t have a shared understanding what that means. Like is we have to create that like what right means in our company. And I think that’s still something we’re working on. I think it’s an organization.

Pete Thornton 32:16
Oh, good. Yeah. 100 years and always, always will be unsure. It’s like fighting the good fight at that point. Yeah. Interesting. Another place, kind of hearing you say this, like the vision, the mission BI, which are your kind of driving the leadership principles there it again, because it’s broadly applicable, but relates, again, is interesting and does relate to your product and your belief systems. It’s another tool. It’s another point of leverage. It’s like broadly applicable, can be used by many, and then can be going on to, like, be specified into the specific places. So kind of like the course aimed your career and the products you’ve created over the course of time. Really, really interesting. Boris, like, I’ve learned a lot today. And I’ve had light side imaginings on some of this stuff, too. I’m like, Oh, what if because everybody that has the challenges and the problems in the back of their mind at all times?

Borris Jabes 33:07
Your constantly projecting my words into like your university supply to postpone that for sure.

Pete Thornton 33:12
But that means that it was that was the imbued? Yeah, it was interesting. It was powerful. It had it was had enough analogies to follow along. Whether you’re what a former colleague used to say, I’m a database guy, he’d say, he’s like, I’ll have to send this one directly to him. If you’re a database person, or you’re not then it was widely applicable. So thanks for all the value. We’re 10 minutes over and I knew we would be and we could go for another hour. But that’s for the pre-podcast topics.

Borris Jabes 33:40
There it is, yeah. The B-side. Thank you for having me.

Pete Thornton 33:46
Yeah, wonderful. Looking forward to doing it again, thanks a lot. Cheers.