The Science of Virality

Pete Thornton 0:00
All right. Welcome back, ramparts, to The SaaS(ramp) Podcast. I’m your host, Podcasts Pete. Cool guest on today. We have Henrique Cruz at Rows. Henrique is the head of growth, first and head of growth on the show, so we’re gonna grill him about PLG and find out all about Rows and himself as well. So welcome to the show, Henrique. Great to have you.

Henrique Cruz 0:25
Thank you for having me, Pete. It’s a pleasure.

Pete Thornton 0:28
And thank you for the timing. I don’t know if anybody can notice at all, if you’re watching on the audio, Enrique was so nice as to give me great eastern standard time hours while he is in Europe. And staying up late just to be on the podcast. So appreciation for me and the audience.

Henrique Cruz 0:45
Not exactly.

Pete Thornton 0:47
Well, we’d like to jump right into it and then kind of back out for a little bit more context. Know your head of growth, know Rows growing very, very quickly, could see in TechCrunch articles as well. Some of the other things in research, just how quickly it’s growing just like most of these hypergrowth organizations we speak with on the show. So what maybe in the last two quarters, have you been working on like, it’s hard, like, what’s your biggest challenge of the last six months?

Henrique Cruz 1:16
I think for us at Rows and just taking a step back. Like, what is Rows? At Rows, we’re building a spreadsheet we saved for the slack generation. So never more than spreadsheet that has the built-in integrations with the data sources that you need, that you can get data from analytics accounts, from your database, etc. And where you can share it as an interactive website, really, so that the data doesn’t end in the spreadsheet, and you can actually continue your work forward. And when you think about this, they can have the hardest challenge that we have is around account activation. So the spreadsheet, unlike most products, it’s something that is so horizontal that you can use it for, to do a budget, to plan a project, to plan your vacation or to run the back office of your e-commerce shop. And so the biggest challenge for us is people come in with certain expectations of what the spreadsheet is or what a spreadsheet should do, how fast can we show them value, so that they have a reason to come back the following day? That’s really the biggest challenge that we have on the product and undergrowth side. And that’s I think, a lot of the work that we’ve been doing over the past six months.

Pete Thornton 2:20
Interesting. Okay, I have a couple for you. Because, again, I told you: first head of growth on the show, so we’re talking about slightly different challenges. Before we even like understand, like, why, why does the business care about some of these things like account activation? And you mentioned speed to value and things like that. Why are these things important?

Henrique Cruz 2:44
I think it all starts from what is the model to which your company will grow and scale, especially effort after you have either product market sheet, or at least there’s a subset of users that are getting value from the product anyone’s killed from them, then it’s kind of time to think about okay, how does this organization grow? Are we going mostly through virality? So Will people invite other people? Or will people refer other people in his district rolls motion? Will we mostly row through content? So Will people be generating content, their own the users and publishing in the way that can be indexed? Or is the company going to be generating content, or is something more on the paid side or on the sales side, and the responsibility of growth is really to think and then to execute on top of this. And so the reason why we have growth is because it is our job to in our case, get this viral motion going. So if you think about a spreadsheet, you think about a productivity tool, a better a better product happens when more people are on it together. And this typically lends itself very well for viral motion. So giving people a reason to share the spreadsheet. So me sharing a spreadsheet with you Pete inviting you to my account, or me sharing a spreadsheet with a supplier and they cannot edit the spreadsheet, but they have access to it. So all of this is very viral based. And that is kind of the ethos behind our growth team. Getting that going.

Pete Thornton 4:00
Okay, so I’m kind of hearing you say, like, like, one of the things that you’re trying to do is increase collaboration, which would include increase, I assume it would increase the number of users for one, as well, as is probably the amount of value they’re receiving from it if something’s valuable enough that you’re willing to share it to a colleague. And you’re now like being able to move back and forth a little bit through the software.

Henrique Cruz 4:24
Yeah, exactly. And where activation comes in is, for example, we’ve we know that if you do kind of more or less at the moment, then you’ve reached 15 actions within the product. And an action for us is viewing a spreadsheet creating a spreadsheet or inviting someone to join your spreadsheet or embedding your spreadsheets and somewhere else from the moment that you’ve reached 15 action can have your lock then write your three-week retention is 60-70 %. And you understood the value of the product and you created a habit around it. So the challenge is really how can we get you to reach this 15 threshold? Is it should we What are the templates that we recommend? When you sign up? What features do we have that we might be missing, right? Like is the positioning off, and therefore you arrive at the product with a different mindset. And so activation is really key. Because if we move this needle up from 15%, to 25%, and we have a few 1000 people joining every week, this really translates down the line to more opportunities for people to invite other people are longer in the pod, they’re more touch points to upgrade etc.

Pete Thornton 5:28
This fascinates me. I’m an ex-high school and college science teacher. So this is a lifecycle to me mixed with like a heavy dose of statistics. And so the fact that you say out, there are 15 actions, and here’s what classifies an action, here’s what we’re looking for between 15 and 25 percentage of like this is growth speak, that is really, really interesting. And like this is what causes that big curl behind the ability to put an enterprise motion and play, bring in a go-to-market team to take it to the next level, but it never really stops. And it is Postman, 22 million developers, there’s a vision of 100 million connected, collaborative viral developers. And it’s fairly, it fairly obvious to me that postman will eventually reach that, that girl isn’t I’m just doing something very, very similar. So that’s, that’s super cool. So what is it that you’re doing then? And by the way, we’re on Question one, and I just have all those rabbit trails. So forgive me if we’re number. But what is it you’re doing when you’re are you running experiments? Like I would run science experiments? Are you choosing one variable, and then employing that variable? Testing? Is it the scientific method within software essentially?

Henrique Cruz 6:52
It’s essentially that so the way we think about it is we run multiple experiments at the same time, that all should influence this viral motion, okay, so let me give you or if we go a step behind, for example, that should influence the activation moments. So just to give you a couple of examples, one experiment that we ran recently was, when you sign up the first time, and you land on our dashboard, we have something called the Learn page, which kind of are the resources that are dedicated to you based on your role, etc. And we were seeing that very few people actually clicked on that learn page. But the people who clicked on the Learn page had a high correlation with retention down the line. And so one experiment that we did is, is the fact that is, that’s called the Learn page detractor, because you imagine that something that’s called the Learn page is something that you need to spend time on. And that was, that wasn’t really the case. He was templates, tutorials, easy things. And so one experiment was moving that in calling it the for you page, so a lot more like what TikTok calls are experiencing. And that alone increased between two and 3x, the amount of people that go to that page. So that is an example of one experiment, a different experiment was around with templates do you see when you sign up? For example, when you sign up to Rows, we asked you two questions. One of them is, what is your role? Are you a marketer? Founder, GM, whatever? And how good are you with spreadsheets? Are you a basic user? Are you a pro with spreadsheets, and what we were seeing is, if you said that you were a basic or a beginner user, then if we recommend that templates that needed for example, a Google Analytics integration or Salesforce integration, your churn rate was super high. And so one of the experiments was, what will happen if these people that are basic or beginner users, actually, I’d never recommend that templates with integrations, they are recommended simple templates, like a budget tracker, a personal Deb tracker, a weekly meeting notes, template, and that alone increased the activation and retention of people who install templates, because it made them easier to get started. So easier to value. So these are a lot of the things that we have running in parallel, and that basically kind of keep the growth team busy.

Pete Thornton 9:00
Okay. Okay. So what is your measure of success? What’s your success criteria for running your own proof of value internally? We do that on the failed. How do we do that for our customers? We want to understand, like, based on their success criteria, were we able to show value within a trial or a pilot, or sometimes it doesn’t matter with Brock-led growth? They know what it is, you’re just trying to help them see, like, what future could they state could they have? But what is it for you guys, as far as success criteria goes is there are a threshold for what works?

Henrique Cruz 9:33
There is a threshold for with work. Well, it’s a big experiment dependent, right? So we basically have a baseline and like, let’s say, three months ago, this is a real use case, or real numbers three, three months ago, our, like 50 to 55% of the people who install the template didn’t do anything in the template. And then we did a bunch of these and improvements and now it’s down to kind of 30 to 30.3%. So there we see a meaningful impact in the things that we ran. And so we can say, this direction made sense, we can now move on, sometimes it’s a lot more difficult. But at the scale where we are now, we’re really going after meaningful jumps in the KPIs. Therefore, if it’s kind of a one 2% change, then it’s unlikely that that will drive a lot of impact, or that we can say we’ve directly contributed to that. We’re more looking to things that have kind of a 30%, 20%, 40% difference in the before and after. So we don’t have really, like a scientific threshold for all of the experiments, but been through it the league either, know if this thing made an impact or not.

Pete Thornton 10:42
Okay, okay. Yeah, makes sense. I mean, it sounds like the better, better is the threshold, and much better is something that you really want to get behind and, and double or triple down on really spend more development resources to pursue.

Henrique Cruz 10:57
Yep, exactly.

Pete Thornton 10:58
Okay. Yeah. That’s great. That makes sense. So it feels like this is intuitive, but with no, go to market teams, no sales lead motion yet, in this product lead motion that you’re going to product market fit is there. I know that these are ongoing spectrums, but we’re just saying check Mom’s not Nope, that feels like motion yet. So, we are at like, this is the head of growth is is is pursuing this as like the full, this is the go-to-market leader, you are the go-to-market leader right now. So what are the negative consequences if this account activation is slow, or, or the speed to value is too long? Like these, these couple of things that you mentioned, were challenges the things that you’re working on? Like what? What happens in that case?

Henrique Cruz 11:51
In that case, what happens is that retention ends up being very poor. And if retention is poor, it means that less people are going to share the part with other people. And therefore there’s no really compounding effect of people coming back to the platform and growing. So what happens is, you ended up sort of with the leaky bucket, right? People come in, they kind of try the product, it’s not good enough, they don’t get value they leave. And basically, you can build a scalable business, at least on top of a viral motion, like this. So you have to rethink the value prop or the product, or the how you acquire people.

Pete Thornton 12:25
Yeah, yeah. And it’s fascinating in this product, lead growth motion, where there’s a virality to a collaborative push because it makes these graphs. It makes these graphs move in an exponential fashion when you’re doing it correctly. So the fact that one person can offer it to others, and there’s the spreading network effect is a little bit different than simply missing a sale and like a top-down motion, because you’ve been able to get one person means that they can, it’s that spreading like they can get two they can get four, they can get eight.

Henrique Cruz 12:56
Yeah, exactly. The biggest difference is this compounding effect, right sales, maybe has a compounding effect, or there’s kind of an expansion after you sign in the new customer. Here, the motion kind of is a self-perpetuating motion machine. And therefore, if you miss it means not only that you’re not retaining people next week, it means you’re that you’re not expanding 2, 3, 4 weeks, not 2, 3, 4 months, and everything kept becomes harder for them.

Pete Thornton 13:23
Yeah, I can completely understand it. I love this stuff. This is because this is what just really like triggered me about Postman and what was happening there, which made me want to go and become part of this, this organization that I’m currently at.

So we’ve been talking about it already, so it may not change the conversation at all, but if you had to choose out of the myriad of initiatives that you probably have in flight, if you are looking towards maybe even towards next year, and just the beginning of next year. And if you had to choose one thing for your founder, your CEO, if they asked you what would be the one thing that you would have to get right for your growth organization to ultimately be successful?

Henrique Cruz 14:07
Yeah, it’s a little bit of a loaded answer. But I think the one thing that we need to get right is giving people a reason to share the spreadsheet. And, and sharing means two or three ways it could be, we give you enough reason to share a spreadsheet with a colleague to collaborate with you. Or we give you enough reasons to share a spreadsheet or part of the spreadsheet with a supplier or a client or someone outside the organization. Like we give you enough, enough reasons for you to share a chart inside your notion or your week, the people had contact with, or we give you enough confidence for you to share something with the world. We have this thing called publishing where it’s kind of a GitHub for spreadsheets. I really built a really interesting sales template I want to publish to the world people can come see it duplicated, and I have kind of analytics on top of it. And this is really what we need to get right increasing the reason For people to share the step that they’ve been at Rows, and the more the better we do this and solve this, then the faster we will grow. And the more established will become.

Pete Thornton 15:11
I like some of these terms are you’re utilizing I like that answer as well. But I like the way or the spreadsheet for slack users or slack generation, as I recall you mentioning earlier, and this is the GitHub for spreadsheets, which because these things resonate. A lot of people use Uber or like, the Uber of X, Y, Z, and they’ll fill in the blank. And this is like sometimes that helps the tech version of it, which brings me to my next question, the growth role is a new role. I mean, enablement, sales enablement is a fairly new role. As well, it’s a little bit more of a progressive role, but growth beats that as far as a progressive motion goes, this is a say newer, dynamic with product lead growth. How did you land this role? Like, where did you come from? Why was this a fit? Even if it’s connecting the dots looking backward? Like in undergrad, are you a growth bachelor’s degree?

Henrique Cruz 16:14
Exactly, exactly. No, but looking back, like you said, connecting the dots, my degree is in Industrial Engineering and Management, which is a little bit of a technical business generalist degree. So there’s a little bit of code being a little bit of operations research, a little bit of statistics and a little bit of a lot of things accounting, business macroeconomics, and come on coming out of university, I did consulting for a while, basically, continuously helping companies mostly on the shop floor manufacturing, get better at what they do, like sell more stuff, do with more quality. And it took me around the world, I worked for a few months in the US in Russia and China, in Taiwan, and in Portugal, where I was from, and then I jumped to the tech world, initially, kind of on the product management program management role where I could apply a bit of the frameworks and thinking from statistics and from the consulting world, and, and basically roll kind of came as a natural step after product. So when I joined Rows, we were called Bash, at the time, it was free product free users can, there was a great, and a bold vision and some money in the bank. And basically, I joined the team to help them build out the product. And then after a couple of years, we were still we still had a weightless, so we were still in beta. But I was kind of the person who was talking more with users had helped build out the data pipeline as well, was still on the product, and it felt natural to have someone take over on the business side. And that would be me. So it was kind of a natural progression. So yes, growth kind of might be a relatively new discipline, but it is a bit of marketing together with product, right? It’s quantitative marketing, having product people on your team as well. And that just felt like a natural extension of the stuff that I was doing before.

Pete Thornton 18:07
It does not surprise me at all, that you have some kind of product marketing background, had an excellent VC on from battery ventures will release his episode from similar timeframe insurance as well. And he has part marking background and then it led him into this, this venture capital opportunity battery, but again, it’s this growth mindset. Like he’s he talks about product market fit and and PLG as his two primary ideologies behind whether a company will do extremely well or not, or certain numbers there. And it’s really based on this Grover motion. And it was the same answer he essentially had. So I know being a venture capitalist and being a growth leader are two different things, but you can kind of see the correlation there if you understand the strong and business. So okay, so very, very well. So they’re still not the college course, for my daughter to eventually get enough I’m head of growth, but you can connect not yet now. All right, that’s all awesome. You told us a little bit about your trip around the world and, and things like that, anything else on the personal professional side that kind of has like, led to this particular opportunity arose just anything to expand upon?

Henrique Cruz 19:30
Well, it was a bit of a coincidence really looking joining Rows because I was introduced to embarr to the founder because me and my wife girlfriend at the time were planning to move to Berlin and just live abroad for a while and I got introduced to him because they were starting dash and they were in Berlin and kind of I was more introduced on that look, you should meet to bear to he has built a couple of companies in Berlin he might know some people there and then that moved into what are you doing and of etc and that then I met the team and I loved what they were doing. So that was really serendipitous. Right, I didn’t kind of apply or I wasn’t even referred to a job, I was just referred to a person who might help me land my next gig, potentially in Berlin or show me around the city. So I think these things happen. I was introduced because the founder of the first startup that was out of out of after consulting, talk fast, so talk desk calm now they’re very well known. She was the one who introduced me to bear two at the time. So I think these connections, then play a role, even several years down the line, and I’m really grateful for that.

Pete Thornton 20:34
Okay, that’s very cool. I really do like that. I mean, I talk about collaboration talk about sharings. That’s one-to-one sharing. It’s not viral, but it only takes one when Yeah, exactly. That’s very, that’s, that’s awesome. Okay, another thing then, with Rows growing so quickly. Again, a just a quick look, I always I just prefer TechCrunch. I like how concise they are. And they get to the point. And if it’s important, TechCrunch will report on it. But you plug in TechCrunch and Rows, you’re gonna find out about the series B funding, and how amazing that is. Congratulations again on that. What’s the context for hypergrowth? Like, what I mean, it’s a spreadsheet, right? So like, like, because everything is just like, oh, Uber gist car? Is Netflix, just a TV show. So what is the context for the absolute scale of Rows right now?

Henrique Cruz 21:25
I think it starts with, why are we building a spreadsheet? Right? I think if you look at the digital market, probably Excel is the only company that has dominated the same market for 40 years. And then Google Sheets came in. But I would just think our thesis is a lot of things have changed in the past 1516 years since Google Sheets launched, like the mobile phone and iPhone launched a few years later. And kind of this everything needs to be mobile-ready to go ready to consume is a big trend that was both spreadsheets. And also this explosion of SaaS, we’re talking about at a SaaS podcast. So SaaS API’s integrating these different services, and spreadsheets really haven’t caught up. And I think that is part of the appeal to have of having someone who is kind of bold enough and daring enough to build a new spreadsheet, because by itself is a little bit of a suicidal mission, like building something on top of maybe the most well-established marketing software. And I think that’s part of the interesting appeal to what drives people to at least try the product. And I think then, our job to propel growth is really to keep these people happy, and then they will invite more people, and they will tell about more people about it. You mentioned the TechCrunch, about serious people, we have done other things more on positioning us against Google and Microsoft, a few months ago, we bought a billboard outside of San Jose, close to Google in one close to Redmond, saying things like Google your spreadsheets from 2006. So is the Nokia 7060 or 6070, it’s time for an upgrade. And like outside Redman as well like might be or Microsoft, your spreadsheet is 40 years old, it’s time for an upgrade, or it’s time to retire something like this. And I think what appeals to people is this contrast between the old and the new, and why someone building the spreadsheet if it’s something that kind of people are used to. So I think that’s a little bit of the context, we still have a lot of work to do to actually bring this to millions of people who are happy. But I think that is part of the appeal, as well on the brand side.

Pete Thornton 23:29
That’s very cool. That’s kind of fun. It’s so funny to me, by the way NSI these billboards, like billboards, like if you find somebody in like marketing right now on YouTube, like going viral, they will be talking about why everything needs to run through your phone, and why the only people like nobody’s looking at a billboard because they’re on their phone looking at their phone, if they’re a passenger, or they’re driving looking at the road. The only place that I feel like that is different is in the Bay Area. Because postman we put out billboards too, and I will literally speak to guests on podcast and they’ll tell me about the billboard that they just saw. And I’m just like, I don’t live in Bay Area. But I know when I’m coming in from either airport, I see these billboards and they’re always for like the latest greatest in NATS products and like it’s the one place that words are on fire.

Henrique Cruz 24:18
That is true. We did use the billboards more for kind of the campaign on the digital side and not really on the physical side. But it is a great medium for you to tell great stories around and of course, you’re in the Bay Area. You’re going from San Jose to San Francisco, you will see billboards of b2b SaaS companies every few miles.

Pete Thornton 24:38
Okay, it’s like yeah, it’s like the one-in-a-million Tesla store that’s actually out there and you’re like oh, because they just have a blueprint somewhere to tell the story you can go order online All right, yeah, that just need on that one. Okay. Then I know we’re all dead but it goes quick because these are fascinating pieces of Intel. What about where are you going? Like, what are some of the places like where do you see Rows take as long of a time period as you want is hypergrowth SaaS. Maybe a year is as far out as you want to look without blowing the top off of your own head. But what’s the vision for scaling look like in the future?

Henrique Cruz 25:21
Yeah. So the goal for us is really to become an integral part of your work. So I think the best competitive that we have now is the Office Suite seems to be changing relatively fast. So you have no shine, you have mural, you have all of these companies tackling. And we think that spreadsheets are the largest untapped opportunity. So we want to be that player on the new office suite of the 2020s. That is really the goal. And I think what that means is for us to be integrated into the workforce, and the stuff we do every day is making it collaborative, making it fun and relevant to share, make it look good that you’re proud to share a lot of time, we are afraid to share the work that we’ve done in a spreadsheet because it’s ugly, the charts don’t look good, everything’s kind of scattered. So giving you reasons and making you proud to share your work and give you visibility inside the company. If we do these things, right, I think we can kind of slowly become the default spreadsheet for the new Office Suite. And that’s really what we’re going after giving people more power to do their job faster. Because when we, when we talk with people, they may have a really interesting BI tool, they may have a great CRM, but oftentimes the works just ends on a spreadsheet, there’s always something that you need to export to do some filters and a quick analysis. And that will, I think, never change, or at least for the foreseeable future won’t change. We just want to make it better.

Pete Thornton 26:46
Okay, that’s tremendous. And if I was a good podcast host, I would wrap right then because as it really good finale, I just can’t help when you mentioned these others because there’s Google Suite, Microsoft suite, meaning there’s a grouping of like products to get not like products, but like a grouping of you have you have your decK you have your live keynote, you have your word processor do what’s your sheet, so is there like, I mean, is there a world? Is there a collaborative motion? Are there partnerships that could form between all of these X, Y, Z of for the Slaton generation is there like something that would like band together? And so you’re not standing alone as the sheet and then somebody else having to find, yeah, ocean mero, things like that.

Henrique Cruz 27:33
Yeah, I think this is something that honestly, the tech world hasn’t solved yet, which is how do you put together a new office suite? They are, I think, two types of positionings, you can be something where you say we are actually not a direct replacement of x, we work together with x, which is no air table is a great database, modern database. And they probably wouldn’t say that they replace the office with even though for a lot of jobs they do, but they kind of are attached to the suite, or notion maybe doesn’t really replace your Word document, but it’s kind of a new type of documents. So that’s one way like brand new type of Acts. But I think really to, to build a new office suite, you will need maybe some partnerships, there are still some pieces missing, I think nobody’s really building the Gmail replacement, right, the email replacement, not a client, but just like an email server that you can spin up your company at whatever new email provider.com Because that is the Glue, right? When you start a new company, you start Gmail or you start with Microsoft, and the suite comes from there. And you maybe you’ll buy notion, maybe you buy rolls, maybe it’ll by air table, but I think something needs to change a bit to have it like all tied in together. Obviously, we saw how Slack exited to Salesforce and it kind of came under a bigger umbrella to be able to compete with Microsoft Teams. And did you will see more consolidation in the market. But there’s also I think a universe in which you see it, like the alternative to the suite, or at least the bigger complementation with it. We still don’t know. At least I don’t.

Pete Thornton 29:03
Okay, okay. Yeah, I’m super curious about that because I know these things are happening in real-time so I didn’t know if you had any insight so I’ll keep my eyes peeled for that. I got another one because there’s again this is like these are things where I’m like go to market side or sales Sales Lead side and this is more of a self-service growth motion. So where do you look to try to gather inspiration? So like, for example, on the big gong.io user, we partner with going through the podcast and things like that have like some promotionals that run and so when I want to know like how a sales lead motion is going really well I looked at them and some of these things that they’re even employees put out and so that’s how I catch my like tip of the spear information about a go to market motion for example, or revenue intelligence. Like do you just look at other like what you think are fantastic products to gather information do you like have a network of people are there periodical? What are things or blogs that you like to look into and read as a head of growth? Like how do you stay up to date?

Henrique Cruz 30:07
Yeah, I keep a running list of my favorite articles and blog posts. When people ask me, I also share in general, the things that I really like are Lenny’s newsletter, Lenny’s, an ex Airbnb guy who has an excellent newsletter on product and on gross. Harry’s marketing examples is also a newsletter that I really liked about more like marketing copywriting examples, and then I ended up catching up a little bit of different things on the sign inside, on the product side, on the marketing side. Spent maybe a little bit too much time or some time on Twitter, talking with people and learning from people. And I do keep a list of products that I like, or new releases, and I keep on track of that I, maybe twice a week, we’ll go to product and see what’s new, how are people positioning things? What type of videos are they producing? What reaction is it getting? And then what really helps me really is going deep into knowing how people use throws, I go out of my way to make sure I have to take two to five calls per week with users, either new users or existing users. And one thing that it really helped us get a better intuition. It’s just kind of looking quantitatively at the data and seeing Okay, everybody that signed up this week, what do they do? Now? 30% of people create a spreadsheet from blank. What was that spreadsheet which formulas were used? The first drop or not? Do they invite somebody else and I think all of this together, has helped me build an intuition around this, but that’s kind of where I go.

Pete Thornton 31:36
It is very cool. Like that’s a great insight. By the way, it is so funny with these like really, like kind of not top secret but like they’re the ones that people in the know will listen ladies Harry’s you would never name anything like that. If you were if it’s almost the antithesis of SaaS, right and he’s clean logos he’s little animal yet, and he got Lenny’s. It just it harkens back to a former yesteryear that sounds like a that’s like a sub shop where I live like big sandwich shop. So I kind of like that. It’s almost like a marketing tactic unto itself. That just sounds so different.

Yeah, thank you so much for the time. Fantastic. So you’ve had a long journey. I always like to ask because there’s a little gratitude along the way as, as all these things are going so well. I know there are challenges, but we’re truly blessed to be in the SaaS face. Again, I was an educator, you hadn’t been around the world for the good and the bad of that, as it went on. Enrique two or three people that sank along the way, for your journey to this point.

Henrique Cruz 32:39
Well, I really have to thank Umberto and Torben, the founders of Rows, because I joined in four years ago, where there was kind of like I told you a grave, not much else, I think they took a chance on hiring their first product person, maybe they didn’t really need it. And allow me to move from Portugal to Berlin. And they have been just great sidekicks on this journey. So I really have to thank them. And then, on the personal side, honestly, just my wife, because, again, we’ve moved from Portugal to Berlin kind of changed lives had the baby. And she’s always been super supportive. And she has a very demanding job as well. So we kind of work together as a team. And I think this wouldn’t be possible without her for sure. So those would be my top three people to think that that’s wonderful.

Pete Thornton 33:23
Well put. mine brought me a new puppy to hang out with and take care of and same way on all my bosses, including my wife, Enrique, thank you. That was brilliant. Wonderful.

Henrique Cruz 33:36
Thanks so much for the invite. Thank you.